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Frontiersman Offline
#41 Posted : Saturday, September 21, 2013 6:10:22 PM(UTC)

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Sorry, I hope my sarcasm showed through, perhaps it didn't.
De oppresso liber
Mormondad Offline
#42 Posted : Sunday, September 22, 2013 11:40:28 AM(UTC)

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You're just fine Frontiersman. While I might have missed the actual sarcasm point I do think I got your point. Just at times I get a bit frustrated at those who either fail to or worse refuse to think for themselves.
"Modesty died when clothes were born."
---Mark Twain
Frontiersman Offline
#43 Posted : Wednesday, October 9, 2013 11:15:20 AM(UTC)

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In my scripture reading the other day I came across a few verses in James that caught my attention. James 2:15-16 says:
Quote:
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
The interesting thing that I saw was the specific mention in verse 16 that the clothing is for warmth. I know this isn't too earth shattering but I haven't seen it worded like so in other verses which speak of clothing the naked. Just thought I'd share.
De oppresso liber
Mormondad Offline
#44 Posted : Wednesday, October 9, 2013 7:50:40 PM(UTC)

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Oh, they are out there, you probably just wasn't in the right frame of mind to pick up on those verses and what they imply. Most folks skip right over them and never quite make the connections. There are other verses in the Bible that speak more directly about nudity (one being about Peter, and the other Isaiah) but I've seen folks actually read them and then say that they don't actually mean full nudity. Amazing how people refuse to acknowledge what's right before their eyes sometimes.
"Modesty died when clothes were born."
---Mark Twain
Yukikaji Offline
#45 Posted : Thursday, October 10, 2013 11:56:59 PM(UTC)
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I suppose I fall into that group MD. :) Not about Peter, but about Isaiah's nudity. I may be wrong, but it was always my understanding that the footnotes in the scriptures are inspired to help us understand the scriptures, and the footnote for Isaiah says that naked in this case only meant without an upper garment. To avoid really looking crazy, aside from Peter's nakedness there is also Mark's (Mark 14:51-52) which I don't dispute. Sure, he ran away when he was naked, but I feel that it's fairly plain that he ran away because the people who were capturing Christ tried to take him too, he just happened to lose his linen cloth in the process, he didn't run because he was naked. And yes, I know it doesn't actually say that Mark was the young man, that is merely conjecture.
Mormondad Offline
#46 Posted : Friday, October 11, 2013 12:10:51 AM(UTC)

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While the footnotes are designed to "assist" us in understanding they are not scripture and as I read the actual verses in Isaiah 20:2-3 they appear quite clear to me in that Isaiah was told to go "completely nude" not even wearing his sandals/shoes. I don't see anything unclear about that.
"Modesty died when clothes were born."
---Mark Twain
Roamer Offline
#47 Posted : Sunday, October 13, 2013 11:12:38 AM(UTC)
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Mormondad wrote:
While the footnotes are designed to "assist" us in understanding they are not scripture and as I read the actual verses in Isaiah 20:2-3 they appear quite clear to me in that Isaiah was told to go "completely nude" not even wearing his sandals/shoes. I don't see anything unclear about that.


I believe I mentioned this one in the older version of the forums. If you obtain a copy of the Institute Manual for the Old Testament(it has been available as an electronic download for free, imagine it still it, that is how I know what it says on the matter), they actually venture into discussing this for a couple paragraphs. They reference another biblical scholar, and proclaim that the people of the area were "unusually modest" and that additionally the description of what he was told to remove indicates he still had some garments on, but to the VERY MODEST people of the area, he might as well have been naked.

Nevermind that none of the translations I've seen render the verse as either "practically naked and barefoot" or "essentially naked and barefoot" or another other iteration of "not quite" + "Naked and barefoot" but they do go to great lengths to create a mental pretzel on that verse specifically in order to declare "he's not naked!"
Roamer Offline
#48 Posted : Sunday, October 13, 2013 11:20:43 AM(UTC)
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Frontiersman wrote:
In my scripture reading the other day I came across a few verses in James that caught my attention. James 2:15-16 says:
Quote:
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
The interesting thing that I saw was the specific mention in verse 16 that the clothing is for warmth. I know this isn't too earth shattering but I haven't seen it worded like so in other verses which speak of clothing the naked. Just thought I'd share.


IIRC, Job should have some almost exactly corresponding verses in the Old Testament. In Job, people are condemned for not providing shelter and clothing to the naked and destitute because they would otherwise be wet(exposed to the elements) and cold. No mention made about the (presence or) lack of clothing being inherently good or bad was made in that chapter. Just the statement that people without any clothing could get cold.
Roamer Offline
#49 Posted : Sunday, October 13, 2013 11:49:46 AM(UTC)
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Frontiersman wrote:
While reading a talk from the BYU speeches website from the President of BYU I came across this statement
Quote:
When we understand that the body is a temple, we will not deface it. When we understand the sacredness of the body, we will understand the importance of modest dress. We will understand the incongruity of individuals stripping to the waist and painting their faces and bodies at football games.
As many people get their idea of absolute certainty from what is promulgated at BYU I figured that this thread would be the most appropriate for words from BYU's President. Now you know what is modest and what is incongruous.


http://ldssdf.org/v2/def...sts&m=1396#post1396
Roamer wrote:
Which then takes us back to the earlier incarnation of this on the old LDSSDF forum:

We are told "Your body is a temple, as such you should treat your body like a temple."

We tend to build our temples in places where they stand out very prominently, "like a light upon a hill."

We do not seek to hide our temples.

We regard our temples as things of beauty.

We are told to prominently display pictures of the temple in our home.

We keep our temples clean and make sure the grounds are well maintained.

We do everything we can to maintain the sanctity of the temple, all can gaze upon and admire the beauty of the temple. But we stringently restrict who can enter within, and police activities that occur on the temple grounds themselves.


I would hold his comment is in line with the "But we stringently restrict who can enter within, and police activities that occur on the temple grounds themselves." Part of my statement. ("We keep our temples clean and make sure the grounds are well maintained." could also be invoked)

It is tantamount to letting someone take sidewalk chalk(or other non-permanent marking materials) to a Temple. So on one front, it could be said he's basically condemning body painting. ("When We understand that the body is a Temple, we will not deface it.") --As an aside, I do think that would be a somewhat extreme interpretation of what he was trying to convey, but it certainly is the letter of what he said.--

But there is an additional layer as well. ("When we understand the sacredness of the body, we will understand the importance of modest dress. We will understand the incongruity of individuals stripping to the waist and painting their faces and bodies at football games.") Which can be tied into discussions we've had here regarding Modesty as it relates to the scripture, rather than the prevalent culture at large within the Church. Modesty in the scriptural sense has a lot more to do with being humble than it does with what parts of your body are open to a virtually unobstructed view.

Running around shirtless(as a spectator) at an athletic event painted from the waist up in your teams colors is not anything close to normal behavior for most fans -- in just about any venue. Abnormal behavior tends to draw attention, deliberate attention seeking is not an activity that a humble individual would participate in, which would make the behavior immodest as well.

I know that is not how the typical member of the church would parse the BYU President's remarks, as you alluded to, but his remarks remain consistent with the discussions that have been had in this forum in the past, and the underlying principles involved.
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Hopkington Kalazan on 1/5/2014(UTC)
Frontiersman Offline
#50 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 12:07:35 AM(UTC)

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Roamer, that is a very good point on the BYU President's remarks and one that I had not thought of, thank you.
De oppresso liber
azdipper Offline
#51 Posted : Sunday, December 22, 2013 12:37:33 AM(UTC)

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I read with interest these postings on nudity and members of the church. I have also looked to writings of our prophets and scriptures to indicate if simple nudity is warned against. None have come to my attention.

The earlier posting about local leaders have a big impact on a member and their status in the church is true.

Several years ago, I had an experience that could have been a lot worse than it was. Here is what happened: I was hiking alone nude out in a remote area inside a national forest on a "jeep" road. I didn't notice a pickup truck approaching behind me till it was too late to take cover. I dashed off the road about 30 yards looking for a bush to hide behind. Not finding one quick enough, I just faced the truck and held my fanny pack in front of my "parts". As the truck passed me, I recognized two of the three men inside. The one closest to me by the passenger window was laughing out loud and slapping the dash board. I was quite embarrassed knowing that I had been seen by someone I knew. To shorten this story: one of the men, a member of another ward, reported me to his bishop who reported it to the stake president. A day later, I was called to come visit with the SP. I knew what that visit would be about it. Not surprising, the SP did not have true facts about the location of their sighting. I told him the truth. Summarizing the visit: I offered to surrender my current temple recommend. He did not accept it. He just told me to "keep your shorts on" when out there hiking. Two weeks later I was called from being a member of the stake high council to be the stake clerk, which I held for about 2 years.

That experience does show that individual church leaders respond differently to such situations.

I hope you have no worse results if this happens to you. Angel
Azdipper

Wise men still seek Him
RetiredOkie Offline
#52 Posted : Sunday, December 22, 2013 7:51:26 AM(UTC)
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Yes individual leaders vary greatly in their views. I have been a member in Salt Lake City, South Central Texas, Houston, Lake Charles Louisiana, Amarillo, Tx and two locations in Oklahoma. Every ward seemed to have it's own character as too how doctrine was viewed. Wards where most adults were not BIC are different from wards where almost every one was BIC for generations. Makes it very difficult at times to sort out the local doctrine from the real doctrine. That is why I decided some time ago that without HS confirmation, I tend to ignore what leaders say until such spiritual confirmation is received. I always considered that leaders pull on their pants one leg at a time just as I do.

I consider that recent converts tend to be more in line with intent than those that have been BIC all the way back to Joseph Smith. Those tend to be very black and white with little compassion and understanding of real life. Isn't it amazing how a JS or BY descendent is more righteous than a recent convert. Just ask them if they know better. They will tell you who their ancestor was right quick. And BYU graduates consider themselves in higher standing with The Lord than others as well. Just my opinion.
retiredokie

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azdipper on 12/22/2013(UTC)
GBSmith Offline
#53 Posted : Sunday, December 22, 2013 11:07:34 AM(UTC)
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azdipper wrote:
...To shorten this story: one of the men, a member of another ward, reported me to his bishop who reported it to the stake president. A day later, I was called to come visit with the SP...


I have never quite understood the need to tell on someone. At the same time your story is good reason to try and stay off the radar. There's an article in the current N magazine about disclosing one's status as a nudist/naturist but for a church member I think it's bad idea. How reasonable your bishop or SP will be can be the luck of the draw.
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azdipper on 12/22/2013(UTC)
Mormondad Offline
#54 Posted : Sunday, December 22, 2013 2:02:08 PM(UTC)

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RetiredOkie wrote:
Isn't it amazing how a JS or BY descendent is more righteous than a recent convert. Just ask them if they know better. They will tell you who their ancestor was right quick. And BYU graduates consider themselves in higher standing with The Lord than others as well. Just my opinion.


Oh boy, I guess I'm really damned. While I'm not a decedent of JS or BY I am BIC, grew up in "Happy Valley," attended BYU. Wink

But then again I have always been considered a bit odd Whistle and different. I have spent a lot of time outside of Utah and while I have grown weary of the "holier than thou" members I long ago learned to not let them dictate how I believe and act. I recognize the local leaders as chosen and anointed men/women of God and and honor there calling, I still recognize that they are human and thus susceptible to error and mistakes. However I refer as much as possible to original sources of doctrine and principles and not just to the judgment of man. I first look to scripture, then to the living Prophet (followed by past prophets) and finally to the Apostles. If there is nothing in these sources then I turn to study, pondering and prayer for my own answers. It is precisely due to the fact that so many local leaders vary in their opinions and policies that I generally refrain from approaching them on many things.

I have found scripture to be totally lacking in any condemnation of nudity. While it does not come out right in saying it's ok or acceptable in the several instances of nudity there is a complete void of condemnation (keep in mind that there is actually one instance of God commanding nudity of a prophet, see Isaiah 20:2-3). I have found no actual condemnation of nudity from any of the Prophets or Apostles, past or present. While I have found many condemnations of actions often associated with or down while nude, there are none that condemn nudity itself without being attached to nudity.
"Modesty died when clothes were born."
---Mark Twain
RetiredOkie Offline
#55 Posted : Sunday, December 22, 2013 2:43:38 PM(UTC)
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I mentioned nothing about being damned. Just my observations that many feel they have a better link on knowledge than others because of genealogy and school. I concede there are exceptions.

I have always thought, MD, that you had your ducks in a row. And that everything you have written was on solid ground. I believe I would rather follow your judgement than any leader I have had in the past. But I am somewhat rebellious with leadership. Maybe I have just had more than my fair share of leaders with their nose in the air. I have been inactive because of such..and also because the church is not really designed for 63 year old never married males.

I am the rare breed you must admit.

How many other 60 something never married males are you aware of? I never met another one outside of the 9 or 10 cousins in my family. And they are not LDS.
retiredokie

Mormondad Offline
#56 Posted : Sunday, December 22, 2013 5:04:38 PM(UTC)

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Woot ThumpUp Where's a "pulling your leg" smilie when you need one.
"Modesty died when clothes were born."
---Mark Twain
nude_explorer Offline
#57 Posted : Saturday, January 4, 2014 12:35:20 AM(UTC)

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Mr Moonella wrote:
If anyone is in doubt about what I'm asking, here it is in a nutshell. I'm not calling on the church to state that it has no official stand on naturism. I'm trying to ascertain whether it already stated it to KUTV2.


When I watched that segment there was no mention of the Church having a position either way. It was actually quite tastefully done.
zorro Offline
#58 Posted : Thursday, January 9, 2014 9:59:06 PM(UTC)
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mormondad, in response to your query about the first pres statement on nudity and art,( i beleIve post #36), i did not get a copy and have wondered how to find official statements that have been read in church.

i haven't responded earlier as my password was no longer recognised and the new one sent by the forum wouldn't let me respond for a while.
Mormondad Offline
#59 Posted : Friday, January 10, 2014 3:37:31 PM(UTC)

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zorro wrote:
mormondad, in response to your query about the first pres statement on nudity and art,( i beleIve post #36), i did not get a copy and have wondered how to find official statements that have been read in church.

i haven't responded earlier as my password was no longer recognised and the new one sent by the forum wouldn't let me respond for a while.


Glad to see you made it back.

Most folks don't think to get copies or are able to get copies of such letters. I was asking if per chance you might have been lucky enough to have gotten a copy. Knowing how the church is in keeping records I imagine it's logged away somewhere, but probably not accessible by anyone other than a GA.
"Modesty died when clothes were born."
---Mark Twain
lvrods Offline
#60 Posted : Sunday, March 16, 2014 8:01:38 PM(UTC)
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I am adding this hear because I think the thread I read has been lost. It did have something to do with this thread. This post would mean a lot more if I could find the original thread. The main topic was a nude swim at Lake Mead back in the 80’s near Las Vegas and a letter sent to the local newspaper by Bruce R. McConkie.

Note: Back in the 80’s the population in Las Vegas 300,000, give or take. Now it is over 1.2 Million headed for 2 Million.

This item is a very interesting topic. I was in Las Vegas working my way through a summer job and getting ready to return to college in the fall. Footnote, I grew up in Las Vegas and have lived hear most of my life. Great place to grow up 30 plus years ago. Not so much now. From memory, this event of the nude swim at Lake Mead happened after my mission. I can’t remember this being a big issue with members of the church here. I don’t remember anything being said in church at the time. With everything that happens in this town now and then, this would not have made much news here in Las Vegas.

I wanted to address the issue of how we bring our own bias to topics and quickly forget how things were, say years ago. When we read the scriptures we do it all the time. So much of our European (western culture) heritage influences our thinking. Think about it when you read the Christmas story. There are no such thing as doors on most building and Inns (motels) in middle east 1st century living. What about three wise men coming to the birth in minutes, and Jews don’t sleep with animals (read the Law of Moses). I digress. Just examples.

Bruce R. McConkie’s response would have been appropriate giving what was going on here and in the region at the time. Elder McConkie I believe was the general authority responsible for Las Vegas at the time. This was a time when apostles came to stake conferences. I had the opportunity to hear him in stake conference a time or two growing up. Think about what was going on in Las Vegas at this time in history and or over the past 10 years. I remember Charles Mason camping in his famous bus about 2 miles from my home, hippies running around and promoting free love and drugs, Vietnam and the end of the ware, band the bra, nudist colonies (hippie style), the women’s movement where I can remember a lot of negative being linked to positive issues. Also several high profile members of the church telling the leadership what needed to change. Interesting time the 70 and early 80's.

As mentioned elsewhere, the letter was not church doctrine. I am not sure if he knew what the event was all about. Even if he did, the response was directed towards those of us living in Las Vegas, and some specific individuals. I think the big issue to Bruce R. McConkie, given the times, was the event looked a lot like other things that were not so positive at the time. I think the comment of “avoiding the appearance of evil” would have fit here. It looked too much like something else.

Also, the title of Bishop and President held a lot of importance in this town (not so much now) at that time. Nonmembers did not understand the bigger church, but they did understand the local church structure to some degree. Everybody new everybody and what they did. I had friends who were nonmembers and two friends were altar boys. Almost went to a catholic high school in town to play football with one of my catholic friends. Very different from the Utah experience I had when attending college at a couple of the universities in Utah.

I think the main issue was the person or persons (here in the Las Vegas culture) saying they were leaders in the church and sounding like they were speaking for the church at large. If I put myself back into this time, that is how I would have taken the comment from those involved in the nudist swim. I think. Responding otherwise may have said okay to other activities of the day that would have set people down the wrong path. It would have been too difficult to separate naturism from all other things happening in that era. Plus, the church does not discuss internal issues with the press. Again as said somewhere else, when you ask a 30 second question you get a 30 second answer.

I think my point is, people need to drop the church leadership titles when speaking to nonmembers on this and other personal issues. To many times when we use titles, it sounds like we are speaking for the church because they do not understand how the church works. They also become confused by our titles and how much power a specific position really has. There are not as many checks and balances in other churches. Many positions in other churches have absolute power over church issues. This is where we can create issues for ourselves and the church in the eyes of others. My opinion is, what I do at home that makes me stronger will never be an issue with the gospel and I will not have issues with the church as long as I do not speak as if I am the church.

Keep in mind that one of the responsibilities of general authorities is to protect the church. I think the hardest job in the church is a bishop because they deal with deep people problems on a daily bases. Stake President and other leaders do not have to deal with such issues on a daily bases. I hope I am never called to be a bishop because I would hate to have to sit in judgment of someone.

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