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Non-Official Official position
Mormondad Offline
#1 Posted : Wednesday, November 28, 2012 8:19:19 AM(UTC)

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The topic of the "Official Position" of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints on non-sexual nudity has been discussed and debated by many both for and against naturism. Some have tried to draw some kind of inferences from one statement or other. However to date the truth is there is actually no official statement or stance by any church leaders on the matter, either for or against Naturism/Non-sexual nudity. While i have heard of at least one instance where someone caught a General Authority and asked a quick question on it only to get a quick conservative response on the matter. Most telling though is the story done by Channel 2 News (Utah TV station) a few months back on the topic; the reporter approached the church offices and asked directly about the matter only to be told there was no official position.

Simply put there is absolutely no condemnation (or support) for Naturism/non-sexual nudity by any of the leaders of the LDS church in any official stance. While many lower leaders tend to strongly condemn anything even resembling nudity they do so purely on their own and without blessing or censure from the church headquarters.

And so what do we do when there is no "official guidance" or direction on the matter? We do as the prophets and apostles have taught we look to the scriptures. But here again they are devoid of any direct reference to the matter. We are once again left to make inferences from what is stated or occurs. Many Christian naturist sites have long discussed the various verses that talk of nudity from Adam and Eve to King David, King Saul and the prophets, Isaiah and even Peter. In these verses there is direct nudity involved and no condemnation (actually one commanded situation of nudity). The common sense analysis might lead one to accept the concept that in God's eyes non-sexual nudity is not sinful or evil but perhaps just part of life and in the most conservative view neither good nor bad. But we must also consider the verses found in Leviticus 18 where it talks of "uncovering" ones "nakedness". This is probably the closest anyone will come to anything in the scriptures that can be considered touching the matter. However, many Hebrew/Bible scholars indicate that this is intact a poor translation and actually refers to sexual sins of incest, homosexuality and beastiality. If we take this interpretation of the verses then there is no official scripture anywhere that directly deals with nudity in the negative. Well perhaps the scriptures that talk about providing clothing for the poor and naked (covering their nakedness). In this we merely need to understand a little bit of the culture and environment to recognize that it is not actually condemning nudity at all but only expressing a need for those of means to ensure that the poor have the ability to get or retain necessary protective clothing and/or not be required by their circumstances to be nude. There is no illusion to nudity itself being evil or wrong.

And so if the scriptures are devoid of any direct statement on the matter and the church leadership in this dispensation is just as silent (or more so) on the matter where to do we draw our understanding of the matter? It can only come as the prophets and apostles have taught us to do; namely to study it out, ponder and pray on the matter individually. We are left to our own to seek out and receive guidance from our Heavenly Father on the topic. When this happens it is not up to any of us to say what is right or wrong for anyone else, to pass judgement on any one else's decision or to press our views onto anyone else. We are to do the same as we have been guided to do with Tithes and offerings as well as other similar issues; we determine between ourselves and our Heavenly Father as to what is right and what if any limitations there are to be.

My personal opinion is that we will not see any "official" position put out by the GA's as any position will become a bombshell and have significant repercussions. Perhaps during the Millennium people might be in a position to better understand and accept a position on the topic of non-sexual nudity but until then it'll never be a consideration.
"Modesty died when clothes were born."
---Mark Twain
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Mr Moonella Offline
#2 Posted : Wednesday, November 28, 2012 4:39:37 PM(UTC)

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Mormondad wrote:
Most telling though is the story done by Channel 2 News (Utah TV station) a few months back on the topic; the reporter approached the church offices and asked directly about the matter only to be told there was no official position.


Did this sentence jump out at anyone else? Or did you all know?

After years on this forum I know very well that the church has stated no official position. But this is something else - a Utah TV station actually asked church offices for an opinion, and church offices actually told this media outlet that there was no official position on naturism!

Making a media statement that there is no official position is very different from just never having made a statement, don't you think?

Which is why I just want to be sure what was said. Were they talking about social nudity, or private skinny dipping, or a specific incident like the Republican in the Sea of Galilee (which even I have heard about in England)?
Mr Moonella Offline
#3 Posted : Wednesday, November 28, 2012 5:22:19 PM(UTC)

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OK, just found what appears to be the clip in question. It's at https://www.facebook.com...114729405&comments. I had never realised that this forum had hit the big time.

So they were talking about the LDS stand on naturism in general, but it doesn't quite say that church offices told the TV channel that there was no official position. The report says:

'The church has not commented on this story'

'The LDS church does not have an official stand on nudism'

'Again, the church does not have an official stand on this idea of nudism'

...but it doesn't say who told the TV channel that there was no official stand. Does anyone have any inside details about what the church offices said?
Jacob Offline
#4 Posted : Wednesday, November 28, 2012 7:55:58 PM(UTC)
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Does it really matter what the church's official position is? If they said it was wrong to be naked would you really quit today? My feeling is that if a statement were to come from someone "in authority" to make such a determination about nudity, it would most likely be their opinion. I prefer to govern myself.
nude_explorer Offline
#5 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 12:13:39 AM(UTC)

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I have read on the LDSSDF and Alan Palmer's forum that several people have written the Church and given website information
for this and Palmer's LDSSDC site to the church headquarters. (Usually by non participating and non approving spouses)
One of the persons received a letter from the Secretary of the 1st. Presidency stating that the First Presidency are very
busy with operating a world wide Church and that people should see their Bishop and Stake President about personal issues.
nude_explorer Offline
#6 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 12:30:09 AM(UTC)

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A word of caution.
Some Bishops, or Stake Presidents may have a problem with nudism/naturism and may
reprimand, dis fellowship, or even excommunicate while others may be just fine with it.
There doesn't seem to be any set rule so its pretty much left up to the Bishop or SP.
In other words be smart. Be careful who knows you are a nudist/naturist.
I know of one person who was excommunicated because he decided to walk around the
house even though he knew his wife was against hid naturist activities, she reported him
to the legal authorities for walking nude in front of his children, and also to the Bishop
who took it to the SP who held a Hi Council court, and he was excommunicated, and the
civil court ordered his name added to the sex offender registry, his wife divorced him.
Lesson to be learned, don't just spring on the family by walking out of your room nude.
If your wife doesn't approve she may tolerate you, but leave the kids out of it.

As for me, I have pondered and Prayed many hours even months and years. I just
keep getting a personal feeling that it is between me and the Lord.
Mr Moonella Offline
#7 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 8:27:23 AM(UTC)

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nude_explorer wrote:
A word of caution.
Some Bishops, or Stake Presidents may have a problem with nudism/naturism and may
reprimand, dis fellowship, or even excommunicate while others may be just fine with it.
There doesn't seem to be any set rule so its pretty much left up to the Bishop or SP.
In other words be smart. Be careful who knows you are a nudist/naturist.
I know of one person who was excommunicated because he decided to walk around the
house even though he knew his wife was against hid naturist activities, she reported him
to the legal authorities for walking nude in front of his children, and also to the Bishop
who took it to the SP who held a Hi Council court, and he was excommunicated, and the
civil court ordered his name added to the sex offender registry, his wife divorced him.
Lesson to be learned, don't just spring on the family by walking out of your room nude.
If your wife doesn't approve she may tolerate you, but leave the kids out of it.

As for me, I have pondered and Prayed many hours even months and years. I just
keep getting a personal feeling that it is between me and the Lord.


That's a warning well worth remembering. So basically

1) If it freaks your spouse out it could mess up your marriage, obviously.
2) Even though there's no official church position, it could still get you excommunicated, sadly but perhaps unsurprisingly.
3) You can be convicted of something which isn't a crime and which is normal in many homes. Which is crazy. Surely a higher court would overturn that!
Mr Moonella Offline
#8 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 8:29:43 AM(UTC)

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Jacob wrote:
Does it really matter what the church's official position is? If they said it was wrong to be naked would you really quit today? My feeling is that if a statement were to come from someone "in authority" to make such a determination about nudity, it would most likely be their opinion. I prefer to govern myself.


Well, my point was slightly different, as I'll explain in a moment. I don't expect any anti-nudity announcement so I think this is hypothetical. My understanding is that there is nothing wrong with naturism. All of my study (scriptural, cultural, historical) and my spiritual experiences lead me to that conclusion. But if I'd been around when the prophet announced that drinking tea was wrong or that I needed to take a second wife, it would have taken me by surprise. It would have gone against what I thought to be true. I would have prayed for my own confirmation of course, and I'm sure I would have got it.

There's a difference between a church leader making a remark on their own initiative and the First Presidency and the Twelve, after discussion and prayer (which is surely what they do), making an announcement or a direction to leaders. There's nothing wrong with naturism, which is why I don't expect any such announcement against it, but if one came I would have to pray long and hard for understanding of what is going on. And I can't imagine that the Lord would give one answer to all fifteen of them and another answer to me. It's kind of a hypothetical question, as I really do not expect them to make any announcement against mixed-gender nudity (any more than I expect one against eating cheese), because the beliefs which lead people to oppose it (eg. the body is embarrassing, offensive, inherently pornographic etc) are not only purely cultural, but directly opposed to the teachings of the gospel.

Anyway, we are actually talking about something different in this thread. You're talking about what would happen if the church made a statement against nudism. But there was an implied statement that the church had been asked for its position on nudism and had replied that it had no official position on it. If that were true, I would say that matters quite a bit, from our point of view.

Some people say that there is no official position because the church had never considered it, or that the church felt that the law of chastity implicitly banned it anyway. But for a TV station to ask the church specifically about nudism, so that they could consider it and reply, for them to give their considered reply as being 'no official position' instead of taking an official position or saying it was against the law of chastity - that would be very significant.

Which is why I'm keen for any clarification, because I don't think the report said that. It said that the church had no official stand but it didn't say who said that. It sounds like the church said 'no comment' rather than anything like 'we have no official position on it'. Does anyone know?
Jacob Offline
#9 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 9:29:16 AM(UTC)
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I guess on the same note, I would love to know the church's position on waterskiing. It's also done in mixed company without garments. Yes, it's a silly comparison. The point is, why do people seek clarification from the church on their recreational activities? Maybe there really is some underlying guilt for being naked in mixed company, or, the member has been culturally brainwashed to seek approval from their bishop or a church leader when they are unsure or have doubts about their actions. I really don't think this is the church's intent, as this would be awfully bothersome to bishops and stake presidents.
Mr Moonella Offline
#10 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 9:37:48 AM(UTC)

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I know. I agree with you. I don't need a statement from the church to tell me naturism is OK. I'm not expecting one, and not asking why they haven't given one.

But nobody is telling me I shouldn't go waterskiing. If they were, it would be very helpful if a TV station had asked the church for it's stand on waterskiing and it had considered it and replied that it had no official stand on it.

Not helpful to assuage any guilt I have. Just helpful in shutting up someone who is telling me that the church is opposed to waterskiing.

That's why I'm interested.
Jacob Offline
#11 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 10:44:43 AM(UTC)
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Mr Moonella,

My thoughts weren't directed at you, just the topic in general. On the other forum a few poor souls decided to seek an answer by prayer, then go share the new personal revelation with their bishop, only to soon find themselves disciplined in one way or another. Hopefully the newcomers will read this thread and rethink, before blabbing. This is my personal opinion and I don't seek to represent the church in any way, but I honestly believe Jesus would have waterskiied naked. Slalom of course.
RetiredOkie Offline
#12 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 11:14:09 AM(UTC)
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Mr Moonella wrote:
nude_explorer wrote:
A word of caution.
Some Bishops, or Stake Presidents may have a problem with nudism/naturism and may
reprimand, dis fellowship, or even excommunicate while others may be just fine with it.
There doesn't seem to be any set rule so its pretty much left up to the Bishop or SP.
In other words be smart. Be careful who knows you are a nudist/naturist.
I know of one person who was excommunicated because he decided to walk around the
house even though he knew his wife was against hid naturist activities, she reported him
to the legal authorities for walking nude in front of his children, and also to the Bishop
who took it to the SP who held a Hi Council court, and he was excommunicated, and the
civil court ordered his name added to the sex offender registry, his wife divorced him.
Lesson to be learned, don't just spring on the family by walking out of your room nude.
If your wife doesn't approve she may tolerate you, but leave the kids out of it.

As for me, I have pondered and Prayed many hours even months and years. I just
keep getting a personal feeling that it is between me and the Lord.


That's a warning well worth remembering. So basically

1) If it freaks your spouse out it could mess up your marriage, obviously.
2) Even though there's no official church position, it could still get you excommunicated, sadly but perhaps unsurprisingly.
3) You can be convicted of something which isn't a crime and which is normal in many homes. Which is crazy. Surely a higher court would overturn that!



I have thought about this a lot when there have been young kids at a nudist resort. Especially when I fished a 4 year old girl out if the pool before she drowned. I grabbed her then sat her on my right hip, one leg in front one leg behind me, right arm under her and walked her to the edge of the pool to give her to her father.

I have always felt that was risky. There could always be some left wing zealot that could think that was inappropriate contact of a young girl and turn me in to the police. Then again if I let her drown, then the parents would have called the police..... Sometimes you just have to do what you react to to and hope for the best. In this society that some think they are more qualified to raise another's kids than the parents, sometimes you cannot win. Just luck keeps you out of court.
retiredokie

Mr Moonella Offline
#13 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 11:29:19 AM(UTC)

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RetiredOkie wrote:
Mr Moonella wrote:
nude_explorer wrote:
A word of caution.
Some Bishops, or Stake Presidents may have a problem with nudism/naturism and may
reprimand, dis fellowship, or even excommunicate while others may be just fine with it.
There doesn't seem to be any set rule so its pretty much left up to the Bishop or SP.
In other words be smart. Be careful who knows you are a nudist/naturist.
I know of one person who was excommunicated because he decided to walk around the
house even though he knew his wife was against hid naturist activities, she reported him
to the legal authorities for walking nude in front of his children, and also to the Bishop
who took it to the SP who held a Hi Council court, and he was excommunicated, and the
civil court ordered his name added to the sex offender registry, his wife divorced him.
Lesson to be learned, don't just spring on the family by walking out of your room nude.
If your wife doesn't approve she may tolerate you, but leave the kids out of it.

As for me, I have pondered and Prayed many hours even months and years. I just
keep getting a personal feeling that it is between me and the Lord.


That's a warning well worth remembering. So basically

1) If it freaks your spouse out it could mess up your marriage, obviously.
2) Even though there's no official church position, it could still get you excommunicated, sadly but perhaps unsurprisingly.
3) You can be convicted of something which isn't a crime and which is normal in many homes. Which is crazy. Surely a higher court would overturn that!



I have thought about this a lot when there have been young kids at a nudist resort. Especially when I fished a 4 year old girl out if the pool before she drowned. I grabbed her then sat her on my right hip, one leg in front one leg behind me, right arm under her and walked her to the edge of the pool to give her to her father.

I have always felt that was risky. There could always be some left wing zealot that could think that was inappropriate contact of a young girl and turn me in to the police. Then again if I let her drown, then the parents would have called the police..... Sometimes you just have to do what you react to to and hope for the best. In this society that some think they are more qualified to raise another's kids than the parents, sometimes you cannot win. Just luck keeps you out of court.


Well done. I agree, considering nude explorer's story, sometimes the law is crazy. Don't agree that it's a left-wing/right-wing thing though. Right-wingers aren't all pro-nudist, you know.Angel
Mr Moonella Offline
#14 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 11:32:23 AM(UTC)

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If anyone is in doubt about what I'm asking, here it is in a nutshell. I'm not calling on the church to state that it has no official stand on naturism. I'm trying to ascertain whether it already stated it to KUTV2.
RetiredOkie Offline
#15 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 1:45:38 PM(UTC)
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Ahh .. yes.... Sometimes I do not know my right hand from my left.. But normally attribute everything bad to the left and everything good to the right, correct or not. Like sitting on right hand of God.....
retiredokie

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#16 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 4:13:17 PM(UTC)

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I have searched pondered and prayed about cheese and have received the answer that cheese is not good for my body. Do I expect all of you to stop eating cheese now? No. If a GA said he does not each cheese would I expect members of the Church to stop eating cheese? Yes I am sure some would but hopefully none here. If the Church made an official statement that members are to stop eating cheese would I expect you to stop eating cheese? Yes, I think most of you would after asking about it in prayer.
Remember the simple things are the fundamentals of life. Choose ye your path this day. Si prima non succederet usus duct tape.
RetiredOkie Offline
#17 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 4:56:58 PM(UTC)
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Cheese, the staff if life, I love all cheese, except Limburger and bleu, I don't do Limburger and bleu

Cheese cheese the musical fruit
The more you eat the more........ Oh no that was beans...,sorry

Well cheese does almost the same thing!
retiredokie

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Mormondad Offline
#18 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 6:34:32 PM(UTC)

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I do believe it's significant in that the church has taken no official position on naturism, non-sexual nudity or social nudity. It is just as telling in that they did not point to the Law of Chastity as covering the issue but merely left it at no position. For those individuals who argue that there is no position because it hasn't been considered by the church leadership is in my opinion not valid. The issue has been raised many times over the years by many members and other lower level leaders (SP's and Bishops) and yet nothing has officially come of it.

I believe a good comparison might be that of caffeinated drinks. For many decades many members of the church preached that coke, pepsi and the like were against the word of wisdom, often from the pulpit at church. I believe (although can't state any actual cases right now) that some at one point were even denied temple recommends for drinking caffeinated sodas. This continued for many years with no statement or official position from any GA's (other than Bruce R. McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine" stating it was against the spirit of the Word of Wisdom). Finally this summer a quiet statement was posted on the church web site "clarifying" the stance that caffeinated sodas were not against the Word of Wisdom and that restriction was only limited to Coffee and Tea. This statement was apparently made due to the publicity from the presidential campaign and Mitt Romney.

Much the same way I don't see any statement coming out on naturism or nudity from the church leadership or headquarters at all. For one reason (and I think this to be the primary one) is that it would open the door not only to charges of the church being perverts but also open up many to practice in unwholesome and perverse ways, think of "swingers" and too many would take advantage of the "new and open nudity rules" to violate the laws of chastity and other covenants. In my own personal opinion I believe that most of the senior leaders don't take issue with non-sexual nudity, even if they don't actually practice it in any form, but just won't admit to it. I also don't see the church touching on topics that should be left to the individuals to ascertain. They do not want to direct each and every iota of our lives. Remember those who must be commanded in all things are slothful servants. Church leaders constantly tell us to seek out and study and then pray to know what we must be doing, this applies to those issues addressed directly by church leaders as well as those not touched upon by them. Unfortunately too many members never do this, but follow blindly the things that are stated by church leaders while others do it only half way and expect to get the full answer. Sorry it doesn't work that way. We must study, ponder, pray our way through the whole issue to get a whole answer.

Church leaders are not perfect, they all have their personal opinions, passions and preferences. Good ones work hard (although not always successful) to set their own views aside and honestly work through the issues presented to them. However because of our imperfections we make mistakes and that applies to both senior as well as lower level leaders in the church.

As for me personally, and this has been stated by others; the church is first and foremost in my life, if it came down to a choice between naturism/nudity and the church there is no choice and I would give up any aspects of naturism to enjoy my membership in the church and it's blessings. I need the church in my life, I don't necessarily need nudity. I personally have made some big changes in my understanding of nudity and other related issues, I will always be able to keep these lessons in my life even if I was not permitted to practice a more open and naturist existence. In the end things will balance out.


Oh and cheese definitely is the staff of life, I love good cheese. Extra sharp cheddar goes great with my Mountain Dew. Drool Dancing
"Modesty died when clothes were born."
---Mark Twain
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rjmma Offline
#19 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 8:17:45 PM(UTC)

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Thanks MD, started to type something similar. and it was awful. you did a great job representing some of my thoughts. How did you do that?
Mormondad Offline
#20 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 8:30:23 PM(UTC)

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rjmma wrote:
Thanks MD, started to type something similar. and it was awful. you did a great job representing some of my thoughts. How did you do that?


You know the saying about great minds… Thus you must have one awesome mind. Cool
"Modesty died when clothes were born."
---Mark Twain
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